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00:00:05

Andre, thank you for joining me. Um, I have been very, very interested in the contributions that you've made to this community, so I feel like one thing that's missing quite a bit is kind of leadership and how leaders show up in these transformations. So you've been at Nike, target, Google, some big companies. Yep. I would love to hear your point of view on kind of what you've seen. You know, we talk about patterns and anti-patterns, but things that you've seen in the organizations that you've been involved in, things that have worked and things that maybe haven't worked.

00:00:41

Yeah. Good. Well, first it's great to be here, so thanks for having me today. Um, I would start with one of the commonalities across all the companies that I've had the pleasure of, of working inside of is growth puts pressure on culture. Yeah. Right. It's just been a common theme in every one of these companies. So as we grow, work gets more complex, systems get more complex, we bring in external talent from the outside who lead a different way. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> value different things. And in that, what we start to see is actually the erosion of culture. So one of the main tasks of leadership, I believe, especially in growth companies, is you have to be able to really continue to curate and protect the culture that you had. Yeah. So it doesn't become lore. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>,

00:01:29

I think it's such a great point because we talk a lot about, you know, you do need to evolve, but you, you really do need to stay true to the values in the organization and also this concept of maybe unlearning. That's right. Yeah. And so I spent, you know, 14 years at Nordstrom. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, that culture is big company, you know, all about servant leadership and kind of how do you support teams. And we went through a lot of churn and change and bringing in outside talent and trying to make sure we didn't lose our identity Yep. But also challenge ourselves. Um, so I'd be also curious, um, sometimes organizations look to the people function or the HR function to like solve all the culture problems. And how have you thought about maybe, um, I don't know if this is even the right structure, but like incentives or OKRs or something that kind of channels the entire leadership team towards the outcomes that, that you think are important?

00:02:34

Yeah. So I'll just start with culture as we know. I mean, the way you build culture is one team with one team leader who work knee to knee, arm to arm every single day. And so I think one of the mistakes we often make is that a system can fix or protect or keep a culture healthy. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> actually comes down to it's an aggregation of our behaviors. Yeah. It's the choices we make every day and how we come to work, how we behave, what we value that determines what the culture's gonna be over time. So my best advice to any leadership team is say, if you want a great, strong, vibrant culture, teacher managers how to build one. Yep. Right. And yes, HR can help incentivize and reinforce and reset expectation, but the truth is it comes down to the way you and I decide to interact with each other.

00:03:23

Yeah. So I think that's first and foremost the place you gotta start. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and then as you, as you kind of move forward from there, the other thing I'd say is that I think about culture as the fuel for strategy. Hmm. Right? Yeah. And strategy is one of those things where it's either gonna be participated in or it's not. I'm either gonna choose today to do, make this decision that's gonna enhance and bring to life our strategy, or I'm working against it. Yeah. And so again, I just go back to, I'm like, same with culture is it comes down to are we clear about why the world's better with our company in it? Do we understand how the company makes money? Do we understand how work gets done here in this system, in this place? Yep. And do we understand the promise for effort that is, what am I gonna get in return from the company for doing a really great job? Yeah. I think if we just did more work in those four places, you would see growth accelerate and with a consumer focus and engagement, all the things that we care about.

00:04:19

Yeah. I'd love to hear too your point of view on, I think every organization is going through this. Like, what is the future of the workforce and how do we keep people engaged in this? You know, whether you wanna say it's a hybrid situation or the return to work. What is your kind of thoughts on that? I

00:04:39

Love the question first off, and watching the dialogue so far, I feel like we're having a very shortsighted dialogue right now. We're talking about is it physical work together, is it hybrid or is it remote? And for me, I think there's an upstream question you have to answer first. Starts with those four questions I just talked about. Right. Do we understand why the world's better than Senate? Do we understand how we make money? And then the third one is, do we understand how we work? Yeah. Right. And I think there's a lot of work organizations need to just do to say, how do we make decisions? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, how do we collaborate? How do we prioritize break ties, manage conflict, give feedback? How do we develop people? How do we gather and socialize? Yeah. Once you answer those questions, then you can a answer the question of, okay, where are we gonna work?

00:05:27

Right. When are we gonna work there? Yeah. But I think we're missing that conversation. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And in doing so, we're putting models of work together that don't make any sense to anybody. Yeah. And that's the reaction you're seeing is people are saying, well, why are we at the office when we are a digital platform? Yes. Like, it sort of doesn't make any sense if you stop to think about it. Yeah. And so that's the, that's the hope I have is that we start having an upstream conversation, really figure out how we work best as a company Yep. And then decide where

00:05:56

We're gonna do it. Yeah. I think it's so interesting to watch kind of how that industry is talking about this too, because you have these, um, extremes where it's like, well, the best engagement level is gonna be everybody in the, in the same physical location again. And I have this, I'll call, I maybe call it a hypothesis that a lot of organizations before the pandemic had engagement challenges

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<laugh>. Well, it's not a hypothesis. It's true. Yeah. Gallup would've told us that on average over the course of the last 15, 20 years, only about 32% of working adults are fully engaged. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Right. So your hypothesis actually proved true. We were in any better shape before Yeah. Than we're now actually, I think what you're seeing is you're, you're seeing a little bit more productivity Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> in those places that are giving flexibility however they decide to give it. Yeah. Doesn't always mean that it's about how many days in the office it could be flexibility and benefits. Yep. Flexibility and time off, flexibility in being able to sometimes work from somewhere else other than my desk. Yeah. I think that idea of flexibility is really starting to, to drive up engagement in the places that are willing to, to take a really hard look at it. Yeah. The thing that stands in leaders' ways, and you know this as well as I do, is that we're just habitual creatures. Mm-Hmm.

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<affirmative>,

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They reach these points of success, these points of great power and responsibility based on a very well honed personal way of working. Yeah. And now you're asking almost every leader in the world to change that. Yeah. And so I have empathy both for the employees who want flexibility and deserve it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Right. They're wonderfully talented people and I feel for the leaders. Yeah. Right. Because it's like you're asking them all of a sudden to write with their opposite hand. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> It's a tough ask. Yeah. It's a tough ask.

00:07:45

Absolutely. Um, I also think it's, um, it's another scenario where it, it won't be a one size fits all. No, I think it's a, you know, you really need to know what, what works for your organization and your team, which I think is also hard sometimes. Like I think, you know, we talk a lot in this community about the, um, I'll call it the pitfall that some organizations have fallen in when they've said, I'm taking the Spotify model and I'm gonna copy and paste it. Right. It's similar to some of these things where they're saying, well, what are other, what are my peers doing? It's like that can be an input, but it's probably not just a take whatever everybody else is doing and copy it.

00:08:31

Well, your intuition is great. Again, so part of what I'll be talking about tonight with the team is really about this whole idea of how we work Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> be much, much more important than what we value. Yeah. And to your point, there's no right way. What worked for Netflix works for Netflix. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, what works for Disney Works for Disney. And although those are really prominent brands Yeah. One in tech, one in entertainment, if you copy and paste that way of working, it won't work for you. Right. And so I do think there's just this, this call to action to say, Hey, HR leaders, hey CEOs, maybe instead of looking outward for the best way to do work, maybe just look at how people are working most effectively today. Somewhere in your company there's a team or a set of teams that are literally working at a higher level of productivity with greater ease and with even higher levels of engagement and lower levels of stress or mental fatigue. Yeah. So it's it's happening already. Yeah. And so go find out what they're doing, copy that model a hundred, a thousand, 200,000 times. Yeah. And you'll be more productive. But I think we just have this tendency to believe what's outside is better. Yeah.

00:09:47

Yeah.

00:09:48

And the better practice is sitting right there today. Right. Everyone's been prototyping this thing. Yep. And so go find

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It. Yeah. Find your bright spots. Yeah. Be a

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Great ethnographer of your own company. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And somewhere there is the right way to do work.

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Yeah. That's a really good, good point. It's like, I do believe that sometimes it's, it's just human nature to age assume like we don't have it figured out. That's right. And then the best path is to take, take inspiration from somebody outside. Yeah.

00:10:16

And regular business strategy would tell us that, hey, anytime you try to be an insurgent in a market, you won't get there by copying whoever's number one Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> because they were there first. Yeah. They've perfected, they've done it really well. Same things for ways of working is there's just no right way to do it. Yeah. Especially now. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, right. Yeah. And so I, I think the answer's sitting there waiting for us. I'm just gonna pay attention in a different way. Yeah.

00:10:39

That's great. Um, can you tell the story of how you got introduced to this community?

00:10:45

<laugh>? I'd be glad to. I think it's probably a little bit, uh, maybe unusual because I got to know Jean and Marguerite personally first. Okay. Yeah. So our kids all went to school together. Okay. That's great. And so we met the Kims at a, at a local school in Portland, Oregon, and we ended up as a result of an auction going to a chopped competition in Portland between Oh, fun. Which was really fun, right? Yeah. It's really awesome. And I was sitting next to Gene and of course we sit down, he tells me what he's up to studying the effectiveness organizations that do technology work. And I'm like, he's like, what do you do? I'm like, well, I work in the culture space. And then we had this just tremendously fun conversation for a few hours and they've been great friends and have been a part of this community ever since.

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That's so great. I love that story because so much about this community is connections. That's right. And sharing and just figuring out, um, like early days. So in 2014, that's when I got introduced to this community and met the target team. And there was all this like, well, you can't share with Target. They're in retail, you're in retail. And again, to your point, none of this is, you know, ip No. We're talking about culture change. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you still have to take these concepts and you need to use the context in which your organization is operating. And so it was just a really fascinating thing to watch is how all these, you know, leaders and practitioners came together and said it's okay to share. That's right. It's actually a good thing. So, well,

00:12:24

It's better for business in general. Yeah. You think about DevOps and, and even just tech in general and it's the heartbeat of companies these days. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Right. Whether you talk about the employee experience of a distributed group of 25,000 people and the technology it takes to run that and improve that day after day or all the retail and consumer driven technology that, that this community's a part of. And I just, I think about this community, you're not sharing, if we're not giving people the better practice, we're not finding ways to innovate and be creative together, then everybody loses. Yeah. Right. Anyone in a company loses. Yeah. Anyone that's a consumer loses. And so the community that's been created and actually curated, I think by, by Gene and the team. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. It's been really special and I just hope it continues for forever.

00:13:11

Yeah, me too. It's been great too, just to be back in person. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I feel like I was sharing, you know, I always meet somebody new every year and it's just kind of nice to be back. Um, if you were to kind give this community some guidance, like something that you'd want to share, what would that be?

00:13:32

Oh, I, I mean, the list would be long just 'cause I, I do care about the community a great deal. I, you know, I'd probably start with, with just, um, just this idea that you matter,

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You know, and you, you matter to the company you're a part of and everyone has worked so hard with God. They're just so smart, so dedicated. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> ambitious and really trying to master the craft that they're bringing to the world. You know, I just would tell people like, don't, don't let a company stop you from doing that. Yeah. There's a lot of tremendous places to work. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Um, there's a lot of tremendous companies. There's a lot of need in the world right now. Yeah. Right. And so my first piece of advice is just never let yourself be minimized. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> by the company you're a part of. Yeah. Um, because there's a million places to do great work and everyone's in need. Yeah. You know, I think that, you know, the second thing I'd want the community just to walk away with is, is to realize how, um, how lucky you are to have a group of people who are willing to invest in you the way that they have. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, Jean, you many of the people who have been in this community for a long time. Um, and just the idea that you should pay that forward.

00:14:50

Yeah.

00:14:52

You know, like message, yeah. Gratitude is important, but turning the next generation and making sure that in big and small ways Yeah. You're doing the same thing. Um, that's really great. It's a great model for, for how you build community and we need more community, not less right now. Yeah. Far too separated. Um, far too isolated. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I think we all could sort of take this experience we have here and and pay it forward. Yeah.

00:15:17

I think that's great. Great advice. Um, well I'm really excited to hear your talk today. Fun. And you're closing out the summit, which is amazing and it's a

00:15:25

Little nerve wracking Right. To be honest.

00:15:27

It's gonna be great. Um, so thanks again for your time and everything that you're doing for the community. Really appreciate it.

00:15:33

Community's been great to me, so I appreciate you taking the time and hanging out for me for a bit. You

00:15:37

Bet. Okay. Thanks.