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Hey, Andre.

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Hey, how are you doing?

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I'm doing great.

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Good. I'm great. Thanks for having me.

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Uh, it's our pleasure. Believe me. Thank you for being here in, uh, Amsterdam at the DevOps Enterprise Summit. You got it. And we've got, uh, a bit of an exciting event tonight, uh, with, uh, with you signing your

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Book. We do. Is that right? Yep. The book comes out on September 12th, and we have galley co copies here today and really looking forward to sharing the ideas with the group.

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Yeah. So the title of that book is Wrong Fit, right Fit, and, uh, you know, writing a writing a book is no small feat. So, uh, so what inspired you to, to wanna do that, and particularly about that topic?

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Yeah, so I think the inspiration for the book is, is all the talent out there that's struggling. There's a lot of great talent in the world that has spent years perfecting their craft. They have worked really hard to be good at what they do, and yet they find themselves in a place where they're either really narrowed because of their role or they're just actively disengaged. So the hope of the book is just to help them.

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Yeah. Yeah. Well, one of the, uh, one of the things I heard about, about you and in writing that book is that, that you want good things for the reader. I do. Yeah. Can you say more about that? Yeah.

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I mean, I, you know, there's some $7.8 trillion of estimated loss of productivity due to disengagement, and that just tells me that there's really good people in the world that are sitting at their desk every day, and they're just marginally invested. You know, they aren't valued, they aren't seen, and they aren't having the opportunity to do what they do best. And so that's the good I want, is I want more companies to see more talent and unleash them to do more great things.

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That seems like a noble goal. Oh,

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I hope so.

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Yeah. It could impact a lot of people too. Yep. Now, the, the, the word, the common word that's in that, in the title of the book, wrong Fit, right Fit is, uh, is fit. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Right. And, and I think the book is all about, you know, finding that that fit or recognizing maybe when you don't have it, um, you know, but, but fitting in is important too, isn't it? Like, isn't, isn't that, uh, you know, important for collaboration and cohesion, you know, is is is fitting in a bad thing? Well,

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I think it's really interesting, Jeff, right through, we did some 65 interviews over the summer. Yeah. And one of the big revelations I had is that there's a big difference between fit and fitting in. Right? So when someone fits, basically they have a deep and consistent dedication to how a company works. That means they walk in every day and can just practice their craft. Yeah. Right. So when you fit the way the company works, how they collaborate, solve problems, manage conflict, develop people, give feedback, sell through ideas, it makes sense to the person working in the system, right? Yeah. So it's easy, it's effortless when you're trying to fit in. What's actually happening is you're leaving many of the preferences you have and trying to be someone else who you can't really be day to day. So it ends up feeling like you're riding with your non-dominant hand. It's hard. It's more stressful, you're less productive, and your days feel harder than they should. And so I guess the answer to the question is, I want people to look for more fit, and there's no such thing as perfect fit. Mm-Hmm. But as long as you're fitting in on just a couple areas, not all of them, you'll still feel like you have a great career and a great opportunity. Uh,

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So you mentioned, uh, there's no such thing as a perfect fit. Mm-Hmm. It seems like there is a myth out there that, you know, maybe there is a, you know, this, this mythical perfect fit out there. Uh, is that a myth? And, and maybe what are some of the other myths that are associated with this concept of fit?

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Yeah, so Jeff, I've spent 25 years working in the space of culture, and I think the first myth is that there's good and bad culture, right? I think the first myth is that we believe there's some unicorn of a company out there where it's just Valhalla, it's perfect. Everything works like clockwork. And that just isn't the case because every company is distinct. Yeah. They're built on a certain set of principles, certain ways of working, and when they're at their best, they're very different. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so I guess for me, one myth is there's no perfect company, right? I think the second myth is there's no perfect way to build one, right? So we should be building companies that allow us to do the things we do really well in the best possible way. And when we do that, then we need to look for talent who works the way we work, thinks the way we think, values what we value. And if we do that, we're gonna tend to be able to have more engagement, more commitment, and with that higher performance.

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Yeah. So when, when you're talking about building a company and building a culture and having there be no, uh, you know, right. Way to do that necessarily. Um, in, in your book, you also talk a lot about core values Sure. And, uh, how important those are. Uh, say more about the core values and, and how they get formed and what happens when you get them right. Versus get them wrong and Yeah.

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So every company out there has a core set of espouse values. They range from innovation to collaboration to, uh, things like integrity and honesty. Yeah. What we're finding though is that the espouse value of the company, they don't necessarily match the felt experience of the individuals in the system to the extent that, uh, a group at Sloan MIT just did this fascinating piece of research, and basically they looked at the espouse values of all of these companies, and then they search Glassdoor to see how often in, in employees reviews those same values were mentioned. Interesting. As consistent. And you know what, they found zero correlation. So there's zero correlation between the espouse values of our companies and the felt experiences of our employees. And right there Yeah. Right. There is dissonance. Yeah. Disengagement. This idea that the aspiration you're telling me I should look for doesn't come to life. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And you just erode people's commitment in those moments. So either we have to do one or two things. Either we have to pull down or change the values to fit how the employees see us, or we have to change the experience.

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Yeah. Yeah. So how does a company balance the reality of what they are when it comes to their core values? You know, that what their, their actual, uh, lived experience of their employees is going to be, um, relative to that aspiration of we're striving to be different or better, or, or, or something. How do, how do they hold those two we'll call 'em truths, uh, in, in the same space?

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Well, one of the things that came through our interviews was this sense of, if my company was just a little bit more authentic about the current experience that I'm gonna have, I'd be much more willing to invest Yeah. In helping to build the aspiration they want. But I think what people find is that leaders often stand up and they talk from a place of aspiration, you know, this inspirational leadership, this is who we are, this is what we stand for. And then when you get in the company and, and it doesn't fit that mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you've just lost that employee. And so I guess my answer would be, let's do two things. The first one is let's be real honest about who we are right now, how we work, what we value, who we are day to day, and then let's all try to develop towards that greater ideal, that greater aspiration. Yeah. And in that, I think is a lot more power than probably what's happening today. Yeah.

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Yeah. I, I, uh, I, I think I can agree with that very, very wholeheartedly, um, speaking the truth and then, uh, and then charting a course altogether for whatever that next great thing is going to be. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so you, you mentioned a, a, a key, a key word in your answer there, authenticity, and a lot of people, um, uh, take that authenticity along with honesty. Um, how does that show up in company conversations and, uh, conversations with employees around authenticity and honesty in, in terms of their experience? Like how would, how would a company do that?

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Well, I think there's a couple things that companies and leaders can do. The first one is you have to be able to answer four core questions in sort of a consistent way. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. The first one is, why does this company exist? Or why is the world better with us in it? The second one is, how do we make money or have impact? The third one is, how do we work at our best? And the last one is, what's our unwavering promise to you? And then the interesting thing about companies is every experience of employee is like in a thousand touchpoint over the course of a year, I bump into the company from a policy, from a team meeting, from an offsite, from a one-on-one with my manager from a meeting with my peers. And in those moments, we need to be re-recruiting everybody back to those four questions and our answers. And those answers need to be consistent. And if we just do that, you end up creating a lot of energy as opposed to what's happening now, which is chaos. Every leader has their own answer Yeah. In their own way to each of those questions. And so if you're working across the horizontal, you just start feeling like you work in 10 different companies as opposed to one.

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It doesn't seem like a good recipe for long-term success for companies if

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No, but we seem to make it work <laugh>. Yeah.

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Uh, you know, I suppose there's gotta be a better way to do it though. So you, you provide a lot of tools. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, uh, in, in your book, uh, I think you call them excursions. I do. Uh, uh, particularly for, uh, for talent, you know, people to, to explore who they are and what they're, what they're looking for. Um, tell us more about the excursions. I

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Will. So the excursions were set up really to help all talent be able to make better and more consistent decisions. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> about the teams they join, the companies they join, and the leaders they work for. And so the excursions really help you just to pause, open your eyes really wide, take three steps back and look at the life you want, the things you value, how you like to work, the manager that really is best for you. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And then be able to use those as you walk into a job search. Often what I see is the very first thing we do in a job search is we look at job specs, when in fact the first thing we should do is just do a little bit of self-reflection and make sure we know who we are and what we want. And then we should start looking for first the right company and then the right jobs within it. Yeah.

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So do you have a, do you have a favorite excursion? Do you think you have one then there that's maybe where people should start, or the most useful or most insightful?

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I of course like 'em all.

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Of course you do.

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But I think the, the one that's been really intriguing to me and probably most helpful in my life has been this assessment of what drives your career? Are you of company? Which means are you so aligned to the product and the place that you work that you can't imagine being anywhere else? Yeah. Are you of craft, which means you care about a very singular knowledge area or practice? I'm of craft. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I care about working on culture. Or the last one is you're of cause which means that you're really dedicated to an unjust in the world or fixing a really big problem. And I think the excursion helps people sort out what drives their career. Because depending on your answer to that, the way you develop your career is very different. And so I love that excursion just 'cause it's really unique and it has helped me a great deal about where I go and what I do.

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And so you're about craft.

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I am.

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I think I'm about craft too. I think you are. I, uh, I might be, I might be. Um, somebody might be wondering, you know, out there listening to this or reading your book, whether, whether they are a fit in their, in their current role or in their, in their current company. What's the, what's the advice that you would give to them? Where, what do you think that they should do? Well,

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I think the first advice for anyone out there who is wondering if they fit is just to look at your day to day and how it feels to be in the system. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Right. I mean, I think if you just do a really honest observation of how do I feel when I walk in every day in our interviews, one of the most intriguing things that people said to me is, you know, you have right fit when you don't have the Sunday blues.

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Oh,

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Interesting. When you're at Sunday night and you're sitting there at your dinner table and it just ended. And either you're thinking, man, I'm excited to go into work tomorrow. Or you're dreading it. And if you're dreading it, just know that, hey, you know what, just because it's hard doesn't mean it's a wrong fit. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, there are many buffers you can put in place to make a hard fit ex experience work, or even make a wrong fit experience last for just a little bit. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so I think at the end it's, you know it because you feel in your gut, you know it, because more days than not, you walk in energized and excited and really fully dedicated the task at hand. And if those things aren't true, it might just be a good idea to pick up the book and do a little bit more exploration as to why.

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Yeah. You, you, you mentioned right there, uh, if you, if you feel like you're in that wrong fit situation, maybe just make it last a little bit longer. Yeah. I think there's, going back to the myths conversation, there's, there's this myth out there that, you know, if I, if I determine that I have a wrong fit here, like I should just, you know, just tap out and go somewhere else. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> what would you say to that?

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I'd say you shouldn't rush to any of these decisions that quickly. Right? When you think about our careers, we're gonna spend 13.5 full years of our adult life at work. Right? So that's more than time with friends and family, more than eating second only to sleeping. And so when you think about that decision, it's as important as any decision you're ever gonna make. And so I would hope whether you're in a wrong fit and you're getting ready to jump or you're in a, a place in your career where you are feel comfortable or a little bored Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> or you might feel stuck. You shouldn't jump anywhere too fast. Yeah. One, companies change, right. A way a company feels and works today might not be the way, the way they work tomorrow. Secondly, is teams change, you know, and you might get a different leader who's more of a model for the best of the company, and that might radically change your career. And so I just say, take your time in these decisions. Yeah. Be really thoughtful. Otherwise, there's a lot of cognitive traps that we'll fall into that might have us leaving the place that's right for us and heading to a place that just doesn't work. Yeah.

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Who are the, who are the companies out there that, that really get this fit right? That, that have the equation or the formula, or probably do more right things than wrong things when it comes to creating that kind of fit experience for their, for their employees?

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Well, again, I think, Jeff, it's a really hard answer for me because I don't believe there's anyone that gets everything right for every person.

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Right. No perfect fit. Right. Right. Yeah.

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I do see though, hey, in every company I've ever been in, there's probably 60% of the employees who are generally happy and content. And then there's about 40% who you can just see it on their face in the way they show up and how they feel that they're just not in the right fit for them. And so I'd say, I think it's important for companies to get much clearer about how they work, how they do things, collaborate, solve problems, make that more consistent, and then really look for talent that's not just the best at the job, but they're the right fit for the long term. Yeah.

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Yeah.

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One of, um, one of the, the really prevalent trends, uh, these days, and, and I think for all good and right reasons, is, um, inclusion, diversity and equity. Like we, we, we see that in a lot of corporate strategies. We hear that in the industry quite a bit. Um, a lot of organizations are really putting a lot of time and investment and energy really from the top, uh, to create those kinds of environments for more people to, uh, to fit. Like, so how, how would you, how do you see, um, this book, the wrong fit, right fit, uh, topics fitting into company efforts to, to maybe create a more inclusive, diverse and equitable environment within the organizations?

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Well, I think I'd separate the two conversations. Both are very important, right? When you think about the work being done in diversity, equity, and inclusion, it really has to do with making sure that everybody, no matter their background, no matter their experiences, has an equal chance at being a success in our companies. So there's a lot of work we need to do in our companies around representation, around making sure that disa disadvantaged groups have an equal chance to succeed and rise in our companies. And I believe that work is super important and that work should continue. And there's many people smarter than I that are doing a lot of really great work in that space. I think what we're trying to do with wrong fit, right fit is really to create, um, an additional piece of that conversation, which is often we talk about diversity, inclusion, equity through the physical Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> or even experiential, um, basis of who we are. This book's trying to turn, you know, a new chapter in that story around how we work day to day, right. How we do all those things inside of work. Yeah. And so you could have somebody that looks, feels, acts, has the same experiences as me, but we might work very differently. Right. And so I think this is just another extension of that conversation in the hopes to help more people find places where they can belong.

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I think we can all get behind helping more people find where they belong. That's a, again, back to a very good cause. Um, just a couple more questions for you. Sure. If, if you were able, uh, to, to talk to enterprise leaders, and I'm gonna use Gene's magic wand here, uh, wave the magic wand, and if you could have those enterprise leaders hear one message and act on that, what would that one message be?

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I think that message to all enterprise leaders out there is to realize that commitment and engagement is a ground game. Gone are the days where you can hire someone, onboard them, put them in a job, and just let them go. Now we're living in a world where you have to re-recruit your people every quarter, every month, every day, probably every hour. And that puts a lot of pressure on leaders. But the idea that every time you come into contact with an employee, you're either increasing or decreasing their commitment and engagement. Yeah. I think that just changes the lens you bring to your work. Yeah. Right. And so if there's one thing I'd ask that'd be it, is just realize that every time you bump into an employee, every contact point you have, you're impacting their overall commitment. And they're a lot less patient than they used to be.

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The the, the stakes are stakes are high,

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The stakes are high. Yeah, no doubt.

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And now back to the magic wand question again. Okay. So you've got all, all, all of the talent that's out there, all of the talent. And if you could give one message to them and have them hear it and act on it, what would that message be?

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I think the message would be twofold. One is as you're looking for a place to practice your craft, do all the brilliant things you do. Take your time, right? Take your time to really think about who you are, how you work, and what you want outta life. And then get your head up and start looking around for where's the best opportunity to do that. I think the second thing I'd ask is just to realize that culture is the aggregation of all of our collective behaviors. And so we always wanna turn to our leaders to say, you have to fix the culture, you have to fix the company. And in truth, you can have a profound impact on that by the way, you show up every day. And so if you and all of your colleagues show up in a certain way, guess what? It changes the nature of how everyone else is gonna show up as well. Right,

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Right. That's outstanding. Thank you,

00:19:34

Andre. Hey, thank you Jeff. I appreciate it.