00:00:05

When was the last time that you went to a training? A week long training. And, you know, you get good contact with the instructor, you get good information, and come Monday, you go back to the office and it's just business as usual. You know, very little that you can apply. And when was the last time that maybe you went through a virtual web-based training? And this time you just follow along and you have those slides and the speakers with actually maybe a, a poor audio and bullet points. And again, um, you know, nothing really changes there. It's just a web-based training. So training really is really important. And in our industry, and we talk more about who we are, but, and what we do. But in our industry, software and DevOps is ruling the world, and we have really a challenge because we cannot scale and also re-skill our people fast enough. So it's really a hard problem that we have to solve as an industry. It's just not us. I mean, I think if you're here in this room, you also have, uh, questions and challenges about you train your people and how you kill them. It's really hard problem. It's really, I think, really the, maybe the biggest problem in our industry today.

00:01:14

Hey, Olivier and Joan, I'm Brenda. How is your DevOps Dojo presentation going?

00:01:20

Oh, thank you Brenda. Yes, actually, it's going quite well, uh, so far. Uh, but who are you?

00:01:26

I'm Brenda and I'm from the business representing Charlie's Pet Clinic. The better we take care of our customer's pets, the happier I get. The key to this is the availability of, in the functionality of our pet clinic application. I work mainly with Paolo, our product owner. I get to explain what I want to Paolo and he helps the team to prioritize the work so that I can get what I want. He calls this a backlog. A recent foray into Fair Trade PET products was very encouraging. So I'm working with osh, our scrum master, to get epics and stories created in the team's backlog. Nice to meet you.

00:02:07

Yes. Nice to meet you, Brenda. So we'll get to, uh, meet Brenda and others, uh, throughout the, uh, the course of this talk <affirmative>.

00:02:15

So DXC technology, interestingly enough, um, we're one of the, uh, um, largest startups in the world. The company started, uh, as a spinoff from uh, two other companies. But essentially, when we talk about what we do, it's really about transforming companies in a digital way. And essentially, when we think about the offerings that we have in the different, you know, parts of our business, we've got about nine different offerings. So we're dealing with everything from consulting to business services, analytics, cloud services, um, application services, very broad company. And so we're really looking at how do we innovate and solve business problems. That's really what our focus is. So when we talk about, um, the whole act of, you know, working at scale and skilling what we, and, and looking at what we do, if you look at the time wise here, and we'll just just double tap on this quickly, when we looked at where we were in 2016, we had about 120 people that had participated in some of our white belt training.

00:03:21

And then when we went over to the next year, we got about 3,600. Now, what I neglected to say is the size of our company is about 150,000 employees with about a hundred thousand of those people and deliver. So we have that many people that we have as an opportunity to drive DevOps. And when we think about DevOps, we're looking at it in a way where we're looking at documentation as code architectures, code traditional, you know, infrastructure and, you know, actual development that we do. So we're looking at and loping everyone. So we took a big leap, I'm sorry, I talked, I this wanna use that big pillar. We actually jumped to about 17,000 plus people that have been participating in our training. And it's not something forced, it's something that people are seeking out those NextGen skills.

00:04:13

So when we talk about where we're going as a corporation and we think about bringing companies together, we've got different people that work in different ways. And so this is really critical because we can talk about tools. You've been hearing about tools all day yesterday, and you'll hear more about it today and you'll certainly hear more about it on Wednesday. But the biggest part is you've heard is, is what the, the culture, right? And what we find is that this is the, the, the, the hardest part of any of these transformations. 'cause you can change the tools and you can find you're doing the same things you did the other day with them, and you really haven't done anything at that point. So culture is one of the biggest things that we do in an organization is try to drive that shift and really making sure that people can personalize these transformations and relate it. And essentially allowing people the freedom to work in an autonomous way and making sure that we don't focus on like, the vanity metrics of how many people did this or that, but what type of outcomes we get out of it. So those are key things as we talk about this.

00:05:12

Yes. And, and really the, uh, I guess the elephant in the room is, uh, how do we spread this culture? I mean, tools are quite easy. You, you buy a tool or you go to open source and you don't, but you have another way to pay for it. But, uh, it's really scaling, uh, the culture and, and, uh, and this throughout the company. So how do we learn, right? We as, let's forget DevOps for a second, right? So we as humans, how do we learn, um, when, uh, there is something new that is put in front of me, like a new car, right? Or this BMW super cool BMW electric car. I'm like, okay, yeah, maybe that's like, it looks like a Mercedes. Or, you know, I'm always going to relate something new to something I already know, right? I always take it from the place where I am, and when I look at something new, it's going to always to be related to, uh, to the, what I already know.

00:06:01

So that's how we learn, uh, as humans. Also, when we learn, we have to understand what is the path to success, right? What are going to be the learnings that I need to go through and, uh, show me maybe, you know, Amazon and many other companies do that really well. They have certifications program, right? So, and, and, and, and those certifications program are not there. I mean, it's, it's, there is an industry, uh, challenge there. But really the point is to be able to have milestones and almost stamps and say, okay, you know, about that match now you still need to practice it. Uh, but at least you, you understand the path to your success. So it's really, really important. And also as humans, and just talking from a personal experience, uh, we love stories. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>, um, uh, the, we just love the way, uh, you know, we are, things are put in context in a story. Uh, we love to hear, for example, the Phoenix Project who has read the Phoenix project, right? <laugh>. So it's a story, and I think it's really powerful because with the stories, you have the characters, you have the names, and you can, you know, uh, uh, have empathy with the people, and then you relate to something, a place that, you know. So the story is extremely, extremely important. So that's how we learn, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

00:07:15

So then when we talk a little bit about how we relate these things and we think about what we're doing at DXC is one of the things as we drive the whole DevOps enablement across our workforce, we've essentially come up with a black belt, uh, building system, which we've got white belt really focuses on the what we've got the yellow belt that focuses on the how. And then we've got the green belt that focuses on the why. And of course, the black belt, what we do in practice. And as we do these things, we look at how do we take these things and apply to them to how we work. So we will literally do a hackathon session where we'll bring one of our business teams and we're, we'll do our requirements ahead of time. We'll know what it is we're looking to have as outcomes, and we'll essentially try to enable our folks to go through a lot of this stuff in advance so that they can actually come away with the outcomes and go take that back into production. So it's one of the things that we do there at DXC.

00:08:07

One thing know, one thing I wanted to mention is that DevOps Dojo, so I counted three talks about on DevOps Dojos, uh, this week. Yeah. Uh, it's, um, back in 2015, I was at DevOps Enterprise Summit, uh, in San Francisco. And Ross Clayton and others is giving a talk about their DevOps dojos. And actually just earlier today in the general session, they were mentioning it, right? Right. And I just got so inspired by the world. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So a dojo is the place where you practice your art in martial art, right? You, you practice your craft. So, and that's just super well adopted, adapted with DevOps, because DevOps, you want to learn, but there is nothing better than practicing to actually do the thing and do the do a change. So we came up with this program Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So it's, it's different from the, uh, target program. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. However I checked with, uh, Ross that, uh, that he knew about it <laugh>. But, uh, it's really a continuous learning experience.

00:08:58

Absolutely. And then when we talk about the belt, so kind of at high level, I won't go through many detail, but essentially what we're looking at, what you're getting out of these, it's really about what they're focused, kind of what your takeaway's gonna be. And essentially what we do with the white belt is you want people to understand what it is we're talking about. So with the white belt, it's kind of like a high level, and you kind of get your, get your toes dipped into it. You kind of do your first pull request, you do your first Jenkins bill, you start to work with Ansible and things like that, and create playbooks so that we're talking about these things, you can understand the context they're in. And then we get into the yellow belt. It's more of the how, and I won't try to read that, but essentially we have to make that transformation from talking about it to more about being about it and enabling people.

00:09:44

So really it's like when you're trying to figure something out, you can read about it, you can go through webinars and things like that, but sometimes it kind of helps to just get your hands in it to it right away. And then you can start to really look at how do you adapt that to your job? And then when we think about, you know, the why, you know, we, it's, it's one of those things where for this audience, some people might say, oh, it's just a no brainer. But we have people that are trying to, they're looking at this and they're trying to figure, why do I need to take time to learn about this? Right? And so what we're trying to do is open up the eyes of our workforce to say how it relates to you. So if you're working on something, one of the things I always tell my team is like, I'm not really a big governance fan, right?

00:10:20

But at the same time, if I've got certain guardrails I need to have, and I can use a pipeline or something to help me or copy someone else's, to essentially allow me to, to understand how this relates to my job, whether I'm doing documentation or a tech writer or traditional developer, I wanna understand why it's relevant to our transformation and how we get personal value out of it. So that's really key there. And of course, as I said, the black belt is really about being in that session, that session coming in, knowing what it is that you need to transform before you get out of there and actually doing it and walking out with that digital working style that you can go put into production.

00:10:56

Yeah. And maybe one word about the black belt, so mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, all of the other three Bess are kind of really training and skill. Yeah. Uh, with mixing culture and practice, which would show you in a minute, uh, the black belt is a doing, right? So you don't get black belt certified, right? It's just a doing. So we do a preparation phase where we do some value stream map, uh, with the team. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And we take 3, 4, 5 teams, uh, we see where their constraints are. And then using the DevOps techniques and practices, uh, we start to attack those constraints, you know, following the, uh, the lean, uh, principles. And after that, it's followed by something that we call the DevOps kaizen. So we continuously, we put the teams on their continuous improvement cycles. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So that constantly relentlessly, relentlessly, they really, uh, improve and attack the constraints following DevOps practices. Exactly.

00:11:48

And this one is interesting because when you look at this slide, you know, I love the guy in the center there because it's, um, when we do these, you know, if we do a five day one, you know, we try to kind of give you a sense of the personal interaction that we have, certainly a feedback system. But, but one of the things, every time we do one of these build Aons, um, it's almost like, um, this magical experience that happens where we have people coming in with their requirements and they've got PowerPoints in the whole nine yards. And, you know, what we say is a, coming into this, this is not about PowerPoints, not a planning session. Do all that before you get here. And it's really about transforming the work you have. And it's about coding, but it's also a safe environment. So when you're coming in, if there's some things you don't know, you know, that you didn't, that you didn't quite clinch, it's there where we're trying to lower the bar and allow you to make that transformation.

00:12:38

So you get people that come in and go, wow, I didn't realize I could actually do this. You know? And it's so cool because it's almost like, you know, we have like this little mini graduation that happens. And so that's where, you know, the, the challenge comes in, but it's a full feedback system. We constantly look to evolve it, and as we, um, have people that take on the role and they get, you know, uh, recognized as an additional DevOps coach, right? We're expecting those folks to essentially just to try to enable others. So it's really what this is really about. Anything you wanna add to that Olivier?

00:13:10

Yes, actually, so, and we have the black belt format. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And we have this yellow belt. The yellow belt is also, uh, you know, one week face-to-face training that we have been doing for ourselves, and we develop for ourselves, but also do that with our customers and partners. Uh, but really the challenge there is how do we scale that? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. That's right. Right? I mean, face-to-face training, it's nice, uh, but it requires a big investment in time. And, uh, and it's, and it's hard to cover everybody that we need a hundred thousand employees, right?

00:13:36

So, so the challenge is how do we take something like this for a hundred thousand employees? Because in these situations we're traveling, they're face to face, you know, and you can do that. So, so, so talk a bit about how we, we plan to solve that problem for a hundred thousand people.

00:13:52

Yes. So, and this is what we're going to show you, right? So, um, we, we looked at it and, uh, our CS challeng us. I say, okay, good. You are making a difference. This is just not big enough or a difference. You need to go, you know, to reach further. Uh, so we, we looked at it and, and based on the understanding of how do we learn as individuals and as technologists, uh, and, uh, we use, um, um, uh, SaaS platform, which is called Koda. Uh, if you have been through Kubernetes trainings and other kind of trainings, and, and there are many, uh, people that leverage that platform, it's, it's really interesting, but we'll show you a demo. Um, and, and what we have done is that we have developed all of the modules that we, we are doing and delivering in the yellow Belt DevOps dojo face to face in the virtual format. And that includes both cultural and also, uh, practice and or I would say technical kind of modules.

00:14:45

So, but to do that, we cannot do that. Again, it's all about the story. It's all about you understand what is going to be in this training and is this those learning sessions for you. So we created a, a, a virtual team, futures team, and we are Charlie, the CEO, and we have, uh, change, she's our DevOps coach. We have Brenda from the business, which you met earlier, uh, then the developer. It's, it's a full team, right? And you will notice that each of the, uh, the team members, they have a, a leader, right? So for example, uh, Adam, our system administrator here, you know, starts with an A, uh, we have Hal, uh, hacker, and we have Santo, our scrum master. So just so that we can use those personal characters over and over, across our modules and across our stories. So when we explain a concept, we use those characters and they have a very, um, deep story.

00:15:35

Each of those characters, they have a very deep story and, and they have conflict between them. And it's, it's really like kind of a movie that's being developed here. Um, so a story, an application. So what else is better than the infamous, uh, pet clinic application? But it's also interesting because there, in addition to the application, so it's really the story of an IT team that operates this, uh, uh, this pet clinic application. We also created a full CICD pipeline together with it, right? So not only, uh, there is a story, there is the application, but together with that, we explained the concept of version control, continuous integration, continuous testing, shifting, security left, uh, DevOps, kaizen, the cultural changes, um, agile, all of that in this context. So maybe, uh, there is no, nothing better than a demo. I'll ask run if you can launch the demo movie.

00:16:30

Thank you. So, yes. So we have technical modules, uh, as, uh, you have seen, and this is the environment that we have here. Um, so on the left side we have instructions, and on the right side we have an affirmeral lab environment. So you just start your browser and you get, again, a very al environment that has everything that you need to follow along. So here we are going through the, uh, the, the people and the story. Uh, this is the module on about version control. So what we do is that we explain the current situation when version control is not really done in the team. So they are evolving to actually apply version control, but to do version control will also relate what we do with the backlog, right? With the user stories. So we explained that we have user stories. Actually, the environment is created automatically just for you.

00:17:13

It's a sandbox just for you as a student. And you get the user stories, uh, there. And then you work on the user story. So you have a safe environment to practice, and you can get out of the script. You don't have to follow the instructions one by one. You can explore, you can run different comments. You can do a GIT status, but you can do something else. You can do a GIT log, right? Uh, in addition to that, when we do, uh, when we teach something like, uh, per request, we also simulate interaction. So we have, uh, developed also a bot that is acting there and act as the personas of the characters of the service. So we actually interact with Palo, our product owner, we interact with Tina, our tester. So the thing goes on. And when we have continuous testing, uh, we can actually, that you can see there is that we also have a self-contained environment with a full CICD pipeline where we can see the changes, the test.

00:18:03

And again, it's, it's not a video, it's interactive. It's a real live environment just for you. But we don't do only technical modules. We also do cultural modules. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>. So this is a module about DevOps kaizen, where we explain, okay, we take it from the value stream map that you must have heard, uh, later, earlier today. And we explain how, what is the situation of the team and, and how do we do continuous improvements. So to do that, we simulate team dynamics and interactions. So I was kind of inspired by, uh, eighties and, and, uh, the games I was playing on my old, uh, apple two <laugh>. But, uh, but basically telling the story and the interactions between the, the people and the characters there. We also have, uh, assessments, uh, along the way. So as we move forward and as the students, uh, get to learn new things, we make sure that those, uh, those things are assessed. And everything that we do is linked with action. So when we explain something about DevOps kaizen, and we need to do an PIC about continuous improvement, that gets created in your GitHub environment in that case, so that you have a full, like hands-on learning experience. It's a sandbox safe sandbox. Not only you understand you have instructions, but also you can practice and you can get out of the script, which is really, really key there.

00:19:18

Cool.

00:19:20

So going back to the, uh, to the slides. Mm-Hmm.

00:19:22

<affirmative>,

00:19:28

There we

00:19:29

Go. Okay.

00:19:32

So one of the things that we've done also with, um, with the learning that we have, we really believe in, um, badges and gamification. So we're really working with our, um, senior, um, hr, um, senior VP in fact. And so what we're doing is we're looking at, for our workforce that actually is making the investment in the next gen tools and things like that. We've, um, started to do this thing called badging. And the badging is being done within our formal training systems, as well as linking it to some of the external systems like OBA and things like that to allow people to put the badges out, you know, on their LinkedIn profiles and things like that. And so it's interesting because when, as we've been doing these, these sessions and working with the workforce, we started to get the intention of our senior CTO reporting to, you know, our CEO right?

00:20:23

And our senior leaders. And they realized the value because, you know, for us, our biggest asset is our people, right? So we recognize that, and we wanna make sure that our workforce knows that we are serious about investing in them, right? Because if they're successful, then we're successful as a corporation. So we started this thing where we talk about the badging. And so what you'll see here is the badges that are on the outer are more of the kind of, we have tier, right? So it's a tier one or some of our minor badges. And so if you go through the first one where you're doing the yellow belt, it's got a first belt associated with which people are going through and getting all of these capabilities. And so they'll get badges associated with that. Not only do you just get a badge because you went through the training, but also what we're working is that there's a sense of attestation where you say that, I've done this training and I'm actually using it in my job.

00:21:12

So <laugh>, because that's important. And then as you go into the next belts that we'll be releasing, we've got the yellow belt two and three. And so we're seeing this really to be a great way to inspire folks and to have a sense of gamification was talking to one of the guys from, uh, Walmart Labs, and he was telling me how they were looking at the badging, or even looking at, you know, playing around with different, you know, use cases for trying to understand how we're really moving the business forward and looking at how to tie that into reward system. So it's something that's really being taken serious. Yeah.

00:21:44

It's 2018. So learning and scaling doesn't have to be painful. Yeah. Um, so, and, and the badges are just one thing I wanted to mention this, this gamification aspect. Yeah. So we get people that are collecting badges like crazy. We have a ranking system and everything. But the point is we want to create a continuous learning kind of experience, right? So if you want to know about leading change, or it's the time about, uh, implementing test driven development, Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you take the module at the best time for you when you need it and when you can apply it, right? It's not something that we force on you, it's something that you take and then you get the badge, right? Then later on you can take another module, which where it's most appropriate. So it's all about pulling and taking the, uh, the learnings when needed.

00:22:26

Absolutely.

00:22:29

So on the skills, right? Um, again, uh, if we look a little bit at the numbers, um, back in 2016, we started this program, I mean, uh, this DevOps dojo. And actually we started in 2015, but the numbers were even smaller. <laugh> couldn't show on the graph. Uh, but, but then we, we started to see a really, an uptake, uh, in, in, uh, people following this. Uh, those, um, you know, those, those modules. So we think it's really interesting. The other thing that we want to, to do, one of the next steps that we want to do is not only that we push trainings and learnings, but how do we verify in our source code management system, GitHub, and all of all of those, uh, tools, how do we verify that what we preach and what we teach is actually getting applied? So, okay, there is technology to actually do that in the tools, right? Yeah.

00:23:16

And I think we'll do more with, um, more of the machine learning around that. So we've got a big opportunity there as well, right? Right.

00:23:21

Exactly. So we get feedback, right? Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>, I mean, what good is, uh, like those learnings, uh, and, and what our people are saying about it. So we get actually quite good feedback. So like, I love this one, you should try it <laugh>. So it's, uh, kind of a good NPS, but we get good feedback. We also get, uh, bad feedback sometimes because, um, you know, when we send like a hundred thousand workforce, uh, a training about how do you do your first guitar pool request, your first Jenkins job, your first Ansible playbook, said, this doesn't apply to me. I mean, I don't want to, I don't want to do that. This is not my world. So then what we did is that each and every, uh, bad feedback, we circle back and we, we have a conversations about why, why do we do that, right? And all of the reasons that you have seen in the general sessions and why DevOps is so important and why software is willing our world, maybe the people that are living a bad feedback are just not understood the urgency of the change. So we have a no conversations with

00:24:25

Them. And, and it's, it's, it's, it's also a clear message to us to say, did we miss the mark? Did, were we not as inclusive? And one of the things we try to do, if you looked at the characters, we try to have a good sense of diversity because we, if we're gonna hit a hundred thousand people, we got a lot of diversity in our workforce in the types of jobs people have, the sectors that they're in. At one point we said, well, should we exclude the folks from sales? Right? Do we really think that people aren't doing, you know, uh, development or documentation that's reusable in these different spaces, right? So that would've been a shortcoming had we made, you know, a decision like that. Yeah.

00:25:03

So this is kind of the one cheat sheet that, uh, maybe you can take away, right? This is how we are developing our, our story. And, uh, so we, we created a story. We have an application, we have a pipeline, and we have basically a game. So we gamified, uh, the entire thing. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm,

00:25:18

<affirmative>,

00:25:19

Let's talk about the outcomes.

00:25:21

Yeah. I think with respect to outcomes, um, we, we constantly see breakthroughs and things like that, right? We see people that kind of, that kind of have a, you know, that have that moment. And so when we think about how we're applying this, it just seems as though we have so many different opportunities, right? So when we talk about employee velocity, right? So if we're doing automation, okay, yeah, you're gonna go a little faster, right? And you can take those people and apply them to more higher value things, right? So maybe installing the app or running the app is probably where you shouldn't be spending your time, right? Maybe just you get that goal, but you're spending more of your time, you know, on features and capabilities. And then this was, we talk about, you know, cycling changes, right? So as we can do that with greater frequency and speed, and, you know, we're gonna get the better, the higher quality, right?

00:26:05

'cause you can iterate it over and over again, and it's not a work of art every time, right? So that's something we really wanna get to. And then when we deploy, kind of like the automated workflows, right? It kind of falls into that same space. So those are things that we kind of see, and then essentially it allows us to be more agile. We can change it a dime. We can put something in, you know, we can make a quick decision and, you know, not wait till the end of the week to actually go think about that, right? So we get a lot of those kinds of things that we get with respect to the outcomes.

00:26:33

But, you know, Joan, I think that the transition is really challenging. <laugh>. I mean, we get like people pushing back and say, this is not my world.

00:26:41

I even had a team that actually came to me and said, Joan, I think that you need to, uh, just hire a bunch of DevOps people and put 'em around our developers because we don't have time for this <laugh>. And I said, okay, well, yeah. You know, so, so sometimes people do that. But I said, no. So are you speaking on the behalf of the developer? Are you speaking more from a management perspective? Right? And so I said, I, I doubt you have very many developers that don't wanna have this capability and skill.

00:27:04

So, but what we do here now with that is that we make it super clear to the entire workforce that this is the path forward, right? So we have, with the HR support, with our CIO support and CEO, it's actually very clear for everybody that this is what good looks like.

00:27:19

It's true. And one thing I'll say is that, um, I'm excited when I look at some of our town hall meetings and things like that, and our c you know, our CEO foot stomping about the digital transformation. I mean, he's basically excited and, you know, motivated and the leadership is excited, motivated, the workforce is as well, right? Yep. So, you know, it's always a challenge working with people in the middle <laugh>. But, but, but essentially, um, the excitement is there. And it's always nice when you're not doing something to someone when they want to make this shift. And I think our biggest challenge is, is probably not a day go by where somebody says, Hey Joan, I need a DevOps person. And so, you know, they're asking me who it's gonna be, and then we kind of point back and take that finger back and say, actually, it's you <laugh>. So we really want to enable our workforce, and that's what it's really about. Exactly.

00:28:08

So Dev Dojo, they work for us. Um, tomorrow there is another session, uh, with John and, and Chris, we're going to share, uh, their own story. So maybe if you want to dive deeper in another context, uh, you know, tomorrow, two 40 at NTA two just here, and really the help that we are looking for and, and beyond initial success, you know, we all have stories where we have a team that's doing awesome. They are there, they're on their way. They are, they have their pipeline and everything, but how do you, how do you enlarge and how do you coach the rest of your workforce? I'd like to hear from you and how, how you do that because we are going down one path, but it's at the right path. And how do we adjust ourselves, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, um, just maybe as a closing world, uh, nothing is possible without, uh, without the, the A team, right?

00:28:55

So this is the team that worked on this, on this program so far. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but I, I'll finish maybe and close out with, with this, right? Um, untrained employees and, uh, gurus of phased approach and, uh, people that love sharing code via email or SharePoint. Um, people that, uh, do blameful postmortems. Mm-hmm, <affirmative> and try to fire the culprit, uh, of the latest database outage, uh, are everywhere. That's true, right? So we as an industry, we need to up our game. We know that. We know, we know that things need to change and we have examples and we now even have a recipe for that. But, uh, how do we do that for ourselves? How do we up our game? So training is one thing. Continuous learning is another one. Trust is definitely a big thing. Uh, but we think that there is really, uh, room for improvement there. Thank you very much. Uh, we, I'm Olivier. This is John, and we work for DXC technology customers. Thank you.